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Is there a positive side to communitarianism?

Elliot Engstrom
May 3, 2010 at 7:13 AM

I have a new article at Rethinking the State -- which now has several new authors including Nathan Fox-Helser, Andrew Butler, and Paul Monroe -- about the positive aspects of communitarian systems.  I know that some people at YAL are pretty hardcore individualists and/or Objectivists, so I'd love to hear your take on the idea.  I write:

...I have to admit that one of the key flaws I see in communitarian political philosophies is not so much the non-cohesive nature of the doctrines themselves, but rather the level at which they are prescribed.  If communitarianism was only applied at the local level, could it really survive without an element of voluntarism?  I feel that capitalist leaning nation-states are begging the question in saying that ideologies like socialism don't work, because they are assuming that they must be applied at the nation-state level.

This involves the idea that the strictness of economic laws tends to lessen as they move further away from large-scale application, so anti-communitarian claims like the lack of an adequate price mechanism and lack of adequate information tends to become less of a problem for local communities because the nature of economic communication changes as the distance between actors closes.  It also involves the idea put forth by such philosophers as David Hume that human beings are naturally sociable creatures, and a communitarian system at the local level would be able to use this sociability to its advantage.

Read the rest here.

Define "work".

I certainly agree with you that under communitarianism societies would not vanish completely, starve to death and the world as we know it come to an end. However, capitalists, like myself, push for capitalism because it most efficiently and effectively distributes and produces scarce goods and services.

A communitarian society would never be able to replicate the type of production a capitalist society can produce simply by the nature of human beings (ie.let us keep the fruits of our own labor, we labor more). For evidence see the technological and economic improvements of the United States over the past 225 years.

Also, perhaps most telling of all, commuintarianism most fails because it does not promote the invention of new technology. Inventors are motivated by the profit they see their invention earning them. In a society where one does not profit from his inventions, why invent?

So to keep a long story short, communitariansim fails in comparison to capitalism because it can never match the productive efficiency of capitalism and because it does not breed well for technological advancement.

fraietta's picture

Obviously there has to be some sort of incentive structure for humans to produce and invent.  However, I feel like I addressed this point in my post -- correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that you're arguing that in a communitarian system, there is a lack of incentive to invent and produce because one will not reap the benefits for one's self.  However, that assumes that one only cares about the welfare of one's self.  Whether it is true care for others or a selfishly-motivated desire to be liked and inhabit a positive community, human beings in general are naturally sociable creatures at the local level (obviously there are exceptions -- the serial killer, the serial rapist, etc.).  This likely is an evolutionary trait that we evolved during years and years of living in small scale tribal communities where one had to contribute in order to receive a piece of the pie because everyone's actions were there for all to see, but I'm not enough of a scientist or anthropologist to be able to really speculate as to the reason for this human characteristic.

Also, I have nowhere put forth the idea that there needs to be redistribution of income to live in a communitarian society.  To argue that anyone who sees merit in communitarianism wants to live in a completely communist society is a massive, massive, massive straw man.  I simply mean that there are certain physical aspects of the community -- say, nature reserves, commonly used commercial areas, trading centers -- that could have their societal benefits maximized by being communally owned and managed at the local level.  I argue this in opposition to the anarcho-capitalist idea that all things must be operated and owned by private individuals or companies.  A communitarian system makes sense at the local level because not only can it easily be maintained, but it also can be easily dismantled by those contributing to it by simply ceasing to give resources.  This makes corruption very difficult, and I would argue that it makes corruption more difficult than it would in an anarcho-capitalist society where the person who can be the most economically efficient can wield the most power.

If the greatest economic good for the individual is your goal, then I'd argue that you should be a statist, because the modern state system has been the most efficient system at subjugating the rest of humanity and reaping economic benefits for itself than any other system in the history of the world by mixing together elements of free market capitalism and state-guided authoritarianism.  The state makes economic gains for itself without ever lifting a finger every year on tax day when millions of people send them envelopes of money due to what could happen if they didn't -- how do you get much more efficient than that?  However, it's obvious that every single person can't be a statist, because who will mail them money?  This brings to light the idea of communitarianism -- if actual societal goods are your goal, then it might be useful to ask if maybe the problem isn't that we don't have enough individualism, but rather that we are attempting to form our communal bonds at the improper level.

Elliot Engstrom's picture

I personally am not arguing from an efficiency standpoint as you have falsely labeled me and perhaps the other poster. I believe that the economic system you are advocating would lead to lower standards of living for everyone within the collective (due to lack of pricing mechanisms that the free market provides). Your argument that under anarcho-capitalism that "the person who can be the most economically efficient can wield the most power" is a false understanding of the theory. Customers are free to choose other producers or replacement goods under an anarcho-capitalist system. Only those producers that best serve individuals in the marketplace would thrive (ensuring the best protection against corruption and fraud IMO). In no way would they be forced to use an individual's product or service like under state-capitalism. I suggest you read "The Myth of Natural Monopoly" by Thomas DiLorenzo. I would also suggest you research "The Tragedy of the Commons" in regards to collective ownership of natural resources etc.

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also. simply noting that a drop in material production may be possible doesn't really mean much when it comes to creating an ethical society. honestly, i doubt that the decrease in the quality of production would be that significant, but for the sake of our  argument, i will grant you that this drop in production will happen.  the problem here is that you are equating production and material wealth with happiness, safety, true prosperity, maximized non-material utility, etc. fascist countries are very productive, probably more productive than free market countries, but they do not produce the greatest social good. im ok with a decrease in material wealth if that means something greater for me and for society.

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Production and happiness are usually one-in-one with eachother. The more that is produced, the cheaper it is, the more I can afford, the happier I am. I miss your point...

fraietta's picture

The idea that human beings are motivated by how much they can have was debunked over 150 years ago, in fact by the Austrian School.  Human happiness is much more complex than simply how much you have.

Elliot Engstrom's picture

As the other user noted, such a system would make new technologies and innovations subject to the local political machine (sure it would not be as bad as a nationalist communitarian system, but if such a system is bad why is a smaller version of it any better?). Under such a system, would a person be able to opt-out if they chose not to  take part in the local collective? I still think you would have economic calculation problems even at the local level. If you conceed that nationalized communitarianism fails in its endeavor to develop pricing mechanism, why would you reach the logical conclusion that such a system could work on a smaller level? To me this is like saying communitarianism fails in economic calculation, but lets try the same economic theory at a smaller level (trying to mimic individuals in the market place) even though we know central planning fails in developing pricing mechanisms. If you think this is the case, would not two individuals mutually exchanging good/services in the market be the best economic system to develop pricing mechanisms? All forms of centralized communitarian planning (even at the localized level) would fail in economic calculation compared to individuals determining the price of goods in the market.

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However, you bring up a point that legitimizes voluntaryism IMO. Such a localized communitarian system would not be prohibited in a voluntaryist society. Under such an arrangement, individuals would be free to form (voluntary) collectives of all forms (a petri dish of sociological and economic systems). Those systems that are successful would thrive, while those that are not would wither and die. To me that is the strength of such an ideal- People can develop any type of social arrangements they see fit as long as they voluntarily agree to it.

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Yes!  Mutual aid does not have to be enforced!  Exactly!  Thanks for noting that.

Elliot Engstrom's picture

dear sir. no economic law is immutable. please read up on your marx (and read it with an open mind because most right-libertarians can't do that)

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Naathaaannnn be niiiice.

Elliot Engstrom's picture

This is a typical leftist attack. If you don't agree with something you must not have read it with an open-mind. I have read Marx with an open-mind and have determined (as history proves) that his theories leave out the need for technological advancement. The technologies of the 20th century are what did Marxism in.

fraietta's picture

how so? his theory actually validates technological change. he says that as men meet their most pressing needs they produce other needs, so they strive for things like...technological advancement in order to meet those needs.

however, i dont see that that really addresses the point. what im saying is that alienation is what makes economic laws necessary. for example, the typical family unit has no need for a pricing mechanism where as the international corporation does. the need for profit, and therefore prices, arises out of disutilities, however, small, local economies have a considerably lesser amount of disutility (a view propagated not only by the Austrians, but similar view are also espoused by Smith, Ricardo, etc.) the point is that the misesian and hayekian critique of socialism holds true, but only really for top-down, state socialism, the type of socialism that is conductive to corporations and oligarchies, not small communities.

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My criticism of Marx and technology lies in two facets. One, Marx failed to realize that technology is not something that can only be enjoyed by the capitalist in the form of capital equipment but could and would eventually reach households and increase their standards of living (ie. the computer, the TV, the car, etc). Second, Marx does acknowledge the technology is a creation of the individual but fails to reconcile how or why the individual would create technology in a system of communism (see Rothbard).

As for prices, I disagree with your assessment. A price is not created by the need for profit at all. Prices are created by market forces and the participants in the market (households, businesses, whatever). This will hold true in any situation. For instance when two children trade baseball cards they are creating a price system. "I'll trade you my Derek Jeter card for your Nick Swisher and Robinson Cano card." In this situation the first child has determined that Derk Jeter is worth more than Nick Swisher or Robinson Cano but that Swisher and Cano together is worth at least as much as Jeter. This is a price system. (Yes I'm a Yankee fan)

Why are prices necessary? Because everything has a price whether or not we admit it. Sitting at the computer writing this instead of doing my term paper has a "price," that price being the opportunity cost of waiting another 20 minutes to start the paper. Individuals will try and figure out this opportunity cost and charge their customer a price that exceeds that cost, or else they never would have produced their good in the first place. Simple example: Farmer A grows potatoes but to do so requires him to work 10 hard hours. He could have spent those 10 hours watching TV, playing with his kids, whatever. Farmer A will make sure the price he charges for those potatoes provides him with enough utility to make up for the 10 hours of hard work.

fraietta's picture

I have read Marx with an open mind. Unfortunately, his labor theory of value has been proven to be incorrect. His inability to define "class" also raises concern.  There is no amount of tweaking or revising the LTV to make it any different. As you said economic law is immutable. Furthermore, I am not a "right-libertarian". I suggest you read Rothbard's "Left and Right: The prospects for Liberty".

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I agree with you that there are some serious problems with Marx's theory.  However, as Mike Munger, chair of political science at Duke University and former Libertarian Party candidate for NC governor said to me, "I'm a big fan of Marx, I just can't stand Marxists."

For his time, Marx had some pretty cool ideas.  Granted, he also had some terrible ones.  But for example, we can look at his writing in Capital about the nature of capital accumulation and see that governmental coercion was heavily involved in accumulating the capital to create the modern ruling class and other such groups.

I just wouldn't discount every word Marx says because some of his ideas, like his value theory, can be called into question.

Elliot Engstrom's picture

a.you should check out kevin carson's "studies in mutualist political economy".  he makes a very good attempt at reviving LTV, so good that even if you don't agree with it, it at least makes enough room for one to take people like Marx and Ricardo seriously.

b. not to be rude, but i've read alot of rothbard, and i'm not so sure about him. he's good, but....

c. if you want to check up on the definition of a "class" you should check up on the first few chapters of marx and engel's "the german ideology" its a real short read, and basically says that a class is defined by people who have separate interests from the rest of society, based in their division of labor within the materialist view of history. its kinda bunk, but its alright. however, you really want to check out more legit class theory i know that there is a pamphlet called "agorist class theory" and roderick long has written some good stuff on libertarian class theory as well. its worth checking out since marx made a very strong try, but fell short as far as class theory is concerned.

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Elliot, I do agree with you that purely public good such as nature reserves are better handled under governance by a small community than individuals. For this reason I am not an "anarcho-capitalist." However, you must admit that communitarian societies have failed in the past due to the lack of technological innovation. What reason do you attribute to the mass technological gains the United States has seen compared to the stagnant technologies of feudal Europe or even the USSR? I attribute this technological gain to an economic system that rewards one for the fruits of his own labor.

Also, I am curious how you can distinguish the greatest economic good for the individual with the greatest economic good of the society as a whole. After all, aren't societies simply a collection of individuals? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you are confusing economic good with wealth. These are two very different things. Economic good is best satisfying our unlimited wants for limited resources, wealth is simply an abundance of resources. Capitalism produces both, communitarianism fails to achieve either.

All in all, these discussions between libertarians such as myself who are motivated to the cause by economic theory and libertarians such as yourself who (at least is appears) are motivated to the cause by civil liberties are very interesting.

 

fraietta's picture

Basically, it comes down to the fact that the communitarian systems that I am speaking of would only be formed by consenting individuals.  Thus, it's not me deciding what is the greatest good for the individual or what is the greatest good for society, but rather individuals and societies deciding for themselves.  This is why it can only function at the local level -- there's no way you're going to get people over massive distances to voluntarily contribute to any kind of mutual aid society.

Elliot Engstrom's picture

Also, just to clarify, I do think that economic theory is extremely important.  Having read Human Action, I also think there is a lot of credibility to Austrian economics.  However, I think that economic theory has its limits.  Productive power and efficiency certainly are important, but they are important as means, not ends.  I don't think that the end of mankind is to produce as much as possible.  Rather, it's to achieve happiness.  Economic efficiency and productive power are very important in achieving this happiness, but I do not think that they are the end all.  At times, I think it is legitimate to sacrifice some economic efficiency or physical wealth to achieve ends other than these, and this is what my communitarianism comes down to -- the idea that sometimes managing some properties as mutually owned may not be the most economically efficient method, but it may provide for overall community enjoyment better than the economically efficient method would.  i.e. parks, business strips, community centers, etc.  I have to reinforce that I am only for this at the local level.  The last thing I want is to establish some "happiness council" at the national level that decides what makes people happy.

I'm basically just trying to reinforce that we shouldn't flee from anything that hints of communitarianism, as sometimes there are legitimate reasons to consider the doctrine.

I wrote this really fast, I hope it makes sense.

Elliot Engstrom's picture

I see your point but I still have disagreements. I have a hard time granting the fact that efficiency should be sacrificed for happiness largely because I feel they are one in the same but also because doing so seems to me like government managing property to best please the "majority" while throwing the individual under the bus.

fraietta's picture
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Yes Left-Libertarianism is an interesting topic. And one I find very little agreement with =)

fraietta's picture

You sound like a geo-libertaran , left libertarans dont believe in private property.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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<--- to Elliot

 

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You guys keep arguing about the 10% where you disagree while the state continues to screw all of you over.

Geebuz, both parties have good claims, but really, how realistic is either party under the current system.

You debate divisions of class labor all you want, the states still screwing you over!

Hello!

Grow a pair and get active--if you're more left, then outreach there, if you're more right, outreach there, if you're neither, then just spread some love to anyone who will have you.

Arguing amongst allies is the most childish thing eva

Nick,
CA

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My goal actually isn't to convince anyone of my views -- it's rather to mobilize the massive number of people who consider themselves members of the libertarian left but who feel they are in no way represented.  I'm hoping that if they see posts like this representing their viewpoints, they will come and join our cause.

Elliot Engstrom's picture

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Elliot Engstrom's picture

Nick, this discussion has been far from childish and I, in fact, think it is one that libertarians need to have more often. I agree with you Elliot the libertarian-left has been silenced in America by the big-government left and (as much as it shames me to say it) by the libertarian-right. Libertarianism prides itself on free speech and free thought and for that reason it is essential that we discuss all facets of our movement. The goal of these discussions isn't to make one side change to the other, but is instead to better understand where the other is coming from. With understanding comes acceptance and I do believe that allowing the libertarian-left some say can only go to benefit our cause.

fraietta's picture